Aanspreektitels

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  Jacques

  02-08-2005 08:00

  Hello, I had a discussion with somebody about the various ways in English to adress someone. The following questions came up and perhaps anybody visiting this forum might be able to help us out?

  Next to “Mrs.”, “Miss” and “Mr.”, one may see the abbreviation “Ms.” being used. Does the abbreviation “Ms.” always, by definition, means “Miss”, or is it also more commonly used in case the writer doesn't know the marital status of the person who is addressed, leaving open the question whether it means “Miss” or “Mrs.”?

  Does anyone know the history/etymology of the word “Miss”? Is this the full word, or is it, by itself, an abbreviation of something else?

  We also discussed what happens if a woman's marital status changes after (1) becoming a widow, or (2) after a divorce. In either of these cases, does she become a “Miss” (or a “Ms.”) again, or is it more common and polite to keep adressing her as “Mrs.”?

  In formal letters (business, shipping) one often sees the abbreviation “Messrs.” It seems very obvious that there is a relation with the French “Messieurs” but is this really the origin? Is there an English full word for it, other than the French word? And how do the English actually pronounce this?

  Although these questions may not be the most important ones in a person's life to find the answers to, it lead to an interesting discussion between my friend and I, however without any final conclusions. So, hopefully I can find some answers by asking the readers of this forum? Thank you very much, and enjoy your summer!

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  Sal

  02-08-2005 11:38

  If I remember correctly, my highschoolteacher told us that Miss is currently used for young women/girls, and no longer identifies the marital status as a rule. That is similar to Dutch “juffrouw”, women aged fifty, married or not, are no longer adressed as “mejuffrouw” (miss) but as “mevrouw” (Mrs.). Of course, I am not a native speaker, and therefore I could be terribly wrong, but one cannot blame a girl for believing what her teacher says, can you? ;-)

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  Sal

  02-08-2005 12:33

  Messrs

  FORMAL

  plural of Mr (= title used before a man's name), used before the names of two or more people, usually in the title of a company:

  Messrs Wood and Laurence, solicitors

  Unfortunately, this website does not display the phonetic transcription, so you will have to check http://dictionary.cambridge.org. I am sure you will find satisfying answers to your other questions there, too.

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  Sal

  02-08-2005 12:45

  As for etymology: try and see if you can get your hands on the Oxford English Dictionary.

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  mil

  02-08-2005 18:46

  Mrs is used by married women (widowed or not)

  Ms is used by divorced women or if you want to adress a lady who's marital status is unknown

  Miss is used in all other cases

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  Mieke

  02-08-2005 19:43

  The use of Ms is not specifically used by divorced women. Ms came into use as a kind of definition of in-between status for 1.professional (independent)women and 2. older women,and 3. women living with a partner. Some like it, for them it shows they do not “belong” to a man, some people think it is contrived. It is mainly used on paper, as most women introduce themselves nowadays by their first name.

  Miss has always had the connotation of spinster, which has a slightly unfavourable meaning(ie not been able or good enough to catch a man!!)

  Nowadays all(over 25 more or less) women are addressed by Mrs.unless they insist on the use of Ms.Miss is also frequently used by pupils in schools to address the female teacher, whether she is married or not.

  Mesdames and Messieurs(or ladies and gentlemen) is sometimes used to address an audience.Origin of both is of course french.

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  Jacques

  02-08-2005 21:39

  Thank you very much, Sal, Mil and Mieke.

  Sal I followed your advice and found most things also in both the Cambridge and Oxford free dictionaries online (to be honest, I did not know they existed and were that useful).

  Just a question to all of you, am I right if I think that the level of formality and informality, and the use of Mrs versus Miss, may differ between countries (i.e. the USA more informal) and maybe even between places in one country (i.e. city versus rural area)?

  Anyway, your answers were quite helpful. I was on this site for the first time but I will be back every now and then.

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  Jacques

  02-08-2005 21:49

  Thanks a lot, and of course I couldn't blame you!

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  Mieke

  02-08-2005 22:21

  The English are a lot more informal than you would think, certainly compared to the Germans, I would say no difference in UK between town and country, I live in the back of beyond and am used to being on first name terms with almost anybody at first encounter.This is of course at social level, job level would be different, I suppose.After all, there is no polite form of “you” like in french , german and dutch.

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  Jacques

  03-08-2005 19:58

  Thanks Mieke, I know that the Brits in social terms are not so formal, but I always have the imression that (especially in writing, in business and in any dealings with public officials) they still observe certain politeness traditions.

  That was what I meant. And the Germans, yes, that's another story even though I have many good friends there whose formality is more when you just meet them for the first time. I guess that, essentially, all these differences are sometimes a bit over-exposed. Anyway, thanks again.

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